What Is Hope?

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hmcclungiii	What Is Hope?	Lead	[-]
Posts: 429 (10/09/09 07:13:18) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Tags : happiness, hope, faith, qualia Everyone experiences some kind of hope. Everyone hopes for something. Some people hope for a better dividend, and their hope is often fulfilled. Some people hope for other things, world peace, rapture, love, happiness. But those hopes are never fulfilled. If they were, would it be the same experience as those who hoped for riches and received them; or would it be more of an experience of personal fulfillment? Of happiness? Wouldn't that mean that the experience of an unattainable hope being fulfilled is the same as happiness or inner peace (both of which being unattainable hopes)? So what is hope? An unattainable qualia contradictorily driving us until our unavoidable perishing date? A strange loop? In this way it seems a bit like faith. So are hope and faith the same thing? What distinguishes them; what are there separate characteristics? Both are qualia which in the end can never be experienced. At what point should one give up on hope, and be more realistic - more pragmatic?
Ducky M		#1	[-]
Posts: 3688 (10/09/09 15:08:23) MasterIHMPPPä(click here) Manipulator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	hmcclungiii wrote: At what point should one give up on hope, and be more realistic - more pragmatic? One way of accomplishing that could be by focusing on goals rather than on hopes. I have just migrated from Douglas Hofstadter's world of "strange loops" to Marvin Minsky's world of "mental resources". Apparently Minsky has nothing to say about hopes, but has plenty to say about goals, and about how and why we set them. Last Edited By: Ducky M 10/09/09 16:07:53. Edited 2 times.
Sherezada		#2	[-]
Posts: 2437 (10/09/09 16:38:50) Persian princess Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I hardly have any hopes, and I never set goals to avoid the disappointment suffered in case I don't reach them. However, I have attained a lot of what I wanted in my life. Caminante, no hay camino sino estelas en la mar.
Ducky M		#3	[-]
Posts: 3688 (10/09/09 18:24:11) MasterIHMPPPä(click here) Manipulator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	So you never set any goals such as going to the mercado to get some habichuelas?
BlackEsoterica		#4	[-]
Posts: 401 (10/09/09 18:47:04) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	hmcclungiii wrote: So what is hope? Hope is a preference for an outcome. So saying I hope for "x" is saying that I want "x" to be the case or "x" to happen in the future. An unattainable qualia contradictorily driving us until our unavoidable perishing date? Say what? There is a qualia for hopes, but they aren't necessarily unattainable. There are plenty of perfectly feasible modest hopes that one could have. So are hope and faith the same thing? What distinguishes them; what are there separate characteristics? No, hope and faith are different. Faith is the apportionment of belief to an absence of evidence. Hope is different than this in that one can hope for something that is supported by evidence. Faith purports to make claims about the world, while hope is the desire for something to be the case or something to happen in the future. Both are qualia which in the end can never be experienced. At what point should one give up on hope, and be more realistic - more pragmatic? A qualia that can never be experienced is a contradiction, since qualia is what its like to experience "x". In short, one should hope for the best, but not put stock unrealistic expectations, as that would only lead to needless disappointments. The taco that can be eaten is not the eternal taco.
Sherezada		#5	[-]
Posts: 2437 (10/09/09 23:43:18) Persian princess Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	ñ So you never set any goals such as going to the mercado to get some habichuelas? If I managed to graduate from college without setting it as a goal, I don't need to set a goal to buy groceries. Caminante, no hay camino sino estelas en la mar.
Naturyl		#6	[-]
Posts: 11874 (10/10/09 02:48:12) Ozymandias Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Hope is what I generally don't have a hell of a lot of. Hope gets exhausting after a while when nothing gets much better. These days, I prefer simply keeping my mind off things altogether, except for a little thinking time here and there. I find that life is considerably more tolerable when there are distractions available. The less compulsive introspection and examination of existence I'm doing, the better. It only takes me about 30 seconds to conclude that existence as a whole is fatally flawed and not at all worthwhile, so the less I go down that road, the better off I am. Life, society, and the world are not going to get significantly better in my lifetime. Hope is of much less use to me than something to occupy my attention, and preferably of as slack-jawed a nature as possible. I am basically attempting to retire from thinking, if at all possible. Did it for 10+ years and what rewards were to be had from it are long since behind me. I can't see any more roads to anything useful, just pointless re-fried babble and ways to get myself depressed. KIR Discussion Forums - Religion, Philosophy, Science, Skepticism, Society, Culture, and Community.
Naturyl		#7	[-]
Posts: 11874 (10/10/09 02:56:54) Ozymandias Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Although the above post may sound like I'm depressed right now, that isn't really the case. I'm more "hopeless," which is why I chose to post in this thread, and which is (or at least can be) a somewhat different state from depression. I can live with the knowledge that things are very unlikely to get much better if I have semi-entertaining distractions available and nothing is going badly wrong physically or mentally. While not exciting or enviable, it's a (mostly) tolerable state to be in until one kicks off, and many have it a whole lot worse. I have nothing in particular to be overly depressed about with a roof over my head and semi-decent health (meaning not critically ill, that I know of). Could be better, but could be worse. There's food on the table (such as it is) and various things to do online to stay occupied, and I've never asked a whole lot of life anyway. I am fortunate to be without a whole lot of strong desires. Having strong desires would really suck in my situation, and undoubtedly I would be quite depressed if that were the case. KIR Discussion Forums - Religion, Philosophy, Science, Skepticism, Society, Culture, and Community.
Ducky M		#8	[-]
Posts: 3688 (10/10/09 08:04:43) MasterIHMPPPä(click here) Manipulator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Sherezada wrote: If I managed to graduate from college without setting it as a goal, I don't need to set a goal to buy groceries. You must then be somebody very special. Everybody else I have ever known or heard about ( including myself ) who has graduated from college has found it necessary to set that achievement as a goal.
Sherezada		#9	[-]
Posts: 2437 (10/10/09 14:56:49) Persian princess Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Ducky, You must then be somebody very special. Everybody else I have ever known or heard about ( including myself ) who has graduated from college has found it necessary to set that achievement as a goal. Goals just don't work for me. I think of myself as result-oriented, not goal-oriented. Nat, I can live with the knowledge that things are very unlikely to get much better if I have semi-entertaining distractions available and nothing is going badly wrong physically or mentally. The odds are that things aren't going to get better for me either. In 20 years a lot of things will be worse - my memory, my cognitive abilities, my physical aspect, my strength, my resistance, my immune system. Even my good attitude will be gone. I will look back at this stage of my life and think "wow, I really had it easy then". The only thing to look forward to is kick-ass technology, but the really cool stuff will come after I'm gone, such as the teleporter. Caminante, no hay camino sino estelas en la mar. Last Edited By: Sherezada 10/10/09 15:00:39. Edited 1 times.
Ducky M		#10	[-]
Posts: 3688 (10/11/09 04:52:59) MasterIHMPPPä(click here) Manipulator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Sherezada wrote: Goals just don't work for me. I think of myself as result-oriented, not goal-oriented. I can see that if you go to a grocery store, a probable result will be that you will find beans there, and that you or somebody else will cook them, and that you will eat them, thereby helping to prolong your life. I can also see that if you jump from the top story of a 20-story building, a probable result will be that your life will end shortly thereafter. How does the application of a purely result-oriented philosophy determine which result will actually occur?
Ducky M		#11	[-]
Posts: 3688 (10/11/09 04:59:50) MasterIHMPPPä(click here) Manipulator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Sherezada wrote: I will look back at this stage of my life and think "wow, I really had it easy then". And even that will no longer be possible once we lose the capacity to think at all.
Ducky M		#12	[-]
Posts: 3688 (10/11/09 05:16:53) MasterIHMPPPä(click here) Manipulator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	We can certainly imagine what our present condition will seem to be for us from the standpoint of our own probable future condition -- or we can choose instead to focus on the present on the basis that those present ruminations about future ruminations about the past do not help anybody, but rather tend to depress everybody. Let's recognize that the present is a present, and be grateful for that to whatever agency may be responsible. Any life that we know about in the present or can presently conceive of takes place in the present. If there is any really hopeless hope, it is the hope of escaping from the present. Last Edited By: Ducky M 10/11/09 05:20:52. Edited 2 times.
Ducky M		#13	[-]
Posts: 3688 (10/11/09 06:17:35) MasterIHMPPPä(click here) Manipulator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	In the physical world, both rigidity and flexibility are important. Without the rigidity of bones, we would not be able to function normally. Without the flexibility of muscles, we would not be able to function normally. In human behavior, both rigidity and flexibility are important. Without sufficiently rigid ( consistent ) behavior, we would not be trusted by our fellow human beings enough to be assigned any jobs requiring significant personal responsibility. Without sufficiently flexible behavior, we would not be able to adapt to changing circumstances. These properties of human behavior mirror similar properties of the human mind. Without sufficiently rigid ( persistent ) memories, we would not be able to function normally. Without the flexibility to change those memories, we would be unable to learn. In the case of short-term memories, our inability to change them would seriously impair our ability to take care of ourselves. So it's possible to err on both sides. We may cling too tenaciously to long-term memories or attitudes which it would be better for us to change. Or we may be too susceptible to changing our opinions because of some authorities or other agencies whom we fear or respect, or because of some rewards we expect to get, without reflecting enough about the probable consequences of those mental changes. Last Edited By: Ducky M 10/11/09 06:24:33. Edited 1 times.
Moebius Duck		#14	[-]
Posts: 220 (10/11/09 10:59:51) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Ducky, don't you see that what is really at the bottom of this issue is actually a hidden goal -- the goal of avoiding being disappointed? That's why some of us claim that we have no goals. What could be a realistic alternative? We could try renouncing the fruits of our actions -- as is recommended in Hindu philosophy. What does this mean? It means that although we still set goals, we are not unduly disturbed whenever we fail to accomplish them. Instead, we set new goals. We also derive some satisfaction directly from our attempt to accomplish the old goal. We can usually learn more from our failures than from our successes. "I am a strange loop." --- Douglas Hofstadter
Ducky M		#15	[-]
Posts: 3688 (10/11/09 11:06:28) MasterIHMPPPä(click here) Manipulator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Oh, I see... I think. What would I do without you? You always seem to have a deeper understanding than I can get -- no matter how hard I try. Why is that?
Moebius Duck		#16	[-]
Posts: 220 (10/11/09 11:19:06) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	< Psssst... don't tell anybody, but I'm actually a traveler from your own future! Thanks to your ruminating about how you would ruminate in your future about your past ( which is now the present ) , you have prompted me to travel from your future to your present to let you know that your present ( as is everybody else's ) is okay. > "I am a strange loop." --- Douglas Hofstadter
Sherezada		#17	[-]
Posts: 2437 (10/11/09 14:53:41) Persian princess Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Ducky, And even that will no longer be possible once we lose the capacity to think at all. Well, you're 70+ years old, and you definitely can think. Or do you mean after we die? Caminante, no hay camino sino estelas en la mar.
Sherezada		#18	[-]
Posts: 2437 (10/11/09 14:58:12) Persian princess Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I just made a post and it disappeared, as well as two more posts from the duck. This is weird. Caminante, no hay camino sino estelas en la mar.
Sherezada		#19	[-]
Posts: 2437 (10/11/09 15:00:02) Persian princess Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Okay, the disappeared posts are back. Gee, could my cognitive impairment be even more advanced than I thought? Caminante, no hay camino sino estelas en la mar.
xpsyuvz		#20	[-]
Posts: 57 (10/11/09 16:14:03) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Sherezada, Okay, the disappeared posts are back. Gee, could my cognitive impairment be even more advanced than I thought? I'd make a post on a yuku forum and it would not show up -- earlier today. Was it my mind, was it my computer, was it the internet, was it yuku? If you noticed it here too, I'm thinking it was a problem with yuku -- I hope (it's not something I'm supposed to fix, but others will take care of it)...

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